I'm gearing up to write some Robot Blasphemy

[yvannairie]

So I got to thinking -- it could be interesting if some of the negative bias towards flight frames we see comes from them having an implicit association with space and the orbit, which is directly opposing the planet (Primus) and is thus associated with Unicron.

Like, nobody ever really thinks about it, but maybe Unicron gets portrayed as having a aerial mode or at least suggesting one (and he's definitely portrayed as having a root mode reminiscent of Predacons, so there's that). We have a soft confirmation that Megatronus -- the closest Lucifer figure they have -- had a flying alt mode, since he was who Megatron was modeled after when he became a gladiator.

There's probably canon (including in-universe canon, because it is a religious matter, after all) over what the alt forms of the Thirteen were, although there's also probably plenty of debate which one of them even had alt forms, and plenty of debate over whether transformation originates from Primus or from Amalgamous Prime.

Hell, fringe opinions doubting the divinity of the Thirteen probably exist, too, if it's not even a settled matter over whether Cybertron is Primus or simply his creation.

Comments

[quietmoon]

I love this idea. There's so much to explore with religion in Transformers, especially in TFP where Unicron and the 13 are so relevant the whole way through. I have a ridiculous amount of headcanons for TFP, and one of them is that Liege Maximo is a flightframe. I've no doubt he's likely near the bottom of the popularity list as far as the lore of ancient primes go, considering what we've heard about him, so maybe that could even feed into bias against flightframes. :o I haven't heard before the concept that there's an inherent idea of associating flight as directly contrasting Cybertron aka Primus but I really like it!

But I'm a big sucker for — as you said — in-universe debate and confusion over which (if any) of the stories are true and which are conjecture. Whenever I write something where the primes or creation myth is relevant, I end up implying that whatever truth once existed has gotten muddled up so that it overlaps with fiction in societal headspace.

[yvannairie]

Yeah, Liege Maximo being a flight frame would fit really well. He probably creates a lot of theological problems -- on the other hand you can approach him as kind of fulfilling his functions to Megatronus' delusional ends, a kind of lesson about how your function may be warped by poor motivations, but then you're left with the problem of how good motivations must arise from correct functioning. This would make the Fallen a far more active, rebellious figure, but would be harder to reconcile if Primus had given all the Primes their function as well. On the other hand, you could lean into Liege Maximo being the original bad egg, and make Megatronus more of a tragic misled figure, in a kind of "sometimes bad things happen because it is in some people's inherent nature to do bad" fable.

[quietmoon]

I loved reading this. :)

I can see different versions of the story — maybe one like Aesops Fables that serves most as
a tale to ward against following the wrong person/people, one that sympathises with them both and sees it as a tale of tragedy and inevitability and mortal folly (like Eden's apple, yk), others that see it very much in black and white with Liege as the surrogate for 'evil'...

The Functionist government using cultural history and religion to control the masses by twisting stories to fit their message is chilling, but I can easily see it as you describe. I'd love to see this explored more omg.

[yvannairie]

Thank you! I'm glad you like it, this has definitely been useful for me to get my thoughts into order.

I think ultimately I like the idea that Megatronus' patronage was typical of warrior class mecha -- civil protection, enforcers, soldiers -- and his tragedy is often folded into the narrative to provide a counterpoint to the idea that power and affluence are good for their own sake. Megatronus' downfall was at least partially from a lack of community, from being unfettered and not having a sensible goal in mind for all that power he was accumulating. Megatronus, ultimately, is a failed protector. It pairs nicely with the idea that Prima -- and under his patronage, the judges and courts -- is also tragic in his lack of flexibility and being too quick to assume the worst. The failure of communication between them is the result of valuing method over results, essentially. Prima loses his tragic furnishings and becomes more of a righteous vanquisher of deviance and greed in later retellings to fit better with functionist messages about how it was So Sad that the Fallen was not satisfied to serve his purpose as the sword-arm of Primus.

Liege Maximo is also just up and villainised in later retellings as an agitator and a collaborator and is seen as having gotten his dues when Megatronus turned on him, but the narrative probably wasn't originally that clear-cut? After all, self-interest is not inherently evil, and negotiation, strategising and social engineering are useful and necessary skills, not only because assuming that everyone is always acting in good faith means the ones that don't hold themselves to that standard can make a sucker out of everyone else. Liege Maximo going too far is more of a proper old-fashioned cautionary tale.

It might be interesting to envision Liege Maximo and Micronus Prime as sort of... counter-forces. Micronus is the angel to Liege Maximo's devil on one's shoulder, one of them advocating nobility, group-mindedness and principle and the other one gesturing towards self-preservation, utilitarianism and individualism. "Sometimes, it's good to think for yourself" is not a message a functionist high church would want to propagate, either :D