yvannairie: :3 (Default)
[personal profile] yvannairie

So I got to thinking -- it could be interesting if some of the negative bias towards flight frames we see comes from them having an implicit association with space and the orbit, which is directly opposing the planet (Primus) and is thus associated with Unicron.

Like, nobody ever really thinks about it, but maybe Unicron gets portrayed as having a aerial mode or at least suggesting one (and he's definitely portrayed as having a root mode reminiscent of Predacons, so there's that). We have a soft confirmation that Megatronus -- the closest Lucifer figure they have -- had a flying alt mode, since he was who Megatron was modeled after when he became a gladiator.

There's probably canon (including in-universe canon, because it is a religious matter, after all) over what the alt forms of the Thirteen were, although there's also probably plenty of debate which one of them even had alt forms, and plenty of debate over whether transformation originates from Primus or from Amalgamous Prime.

Hell, fringe opinions doubting the divinity of the Thirteen probably exist, too, if it's not even a settled matter over whether Cybertron is Primus or simply his creation.

Date: 12/5/20 01:36 (UTC)
autobotscoutriella: Picture of a blue robot wrapped in Christmas lights (Default)
From: [personal profile] autobotscoutriella
This is very interesting and makes me want to write about the many religious debates that Cybertron would logically have had, considering how...uh...blurry canon is on the subject! I could see beliefs about the origin of transformation being very regional--in fact, I think a lot of beliefs could be, considering that Cybertron's "cities" seem to be relatively self-contained. I've thought about the idea that different members of the Thirteen might be considered more important, or at least more relevant, in particular areas, though I never got around to trying to map that out.

Date: 13/5/20 02:07 (UTC)
autobotscoutriella: Picture of a blue robot wrapped in Christmas lights (Default)
From: [personal profile] autobotscoutriella
I love the idea of different cities/regions sort of customizing the mythos to fit with the most relevant/important Prime to them--areas heavy on the beastformers/Maximals/etc. probably have a very different take on Onyx Prime than the upper-class Iacon regions might.

It wouldn't work well with functionism initially, I don't think, but with a reinterpretation/simplification of the Thirteen and their history in order to make each member fit into a single use and form, I could see that slowly creeping in as part of the early development of functionism. Depending on how one looked at it, I could even see an early functionism argument being "well, look at how the Primes are separated by their relevant cities--our deities match our intended function" (even though that would definitely be an oversimplification and probably a bad-faith argument, it could be dressed up to sound good).

That definitely makes me think there would be various revolutionary movements cropping up around different members of the Thirteen, too, especially if people were around who still remembered the older Thirteen mythos (or had read/heard about it somewhere). There could easily be various small rebellions built up around the relevant Prime--the three you mentioned would make excellent symbols of rebellion for a populace living under functionism, even if they weren't considered strictly divine at that point. Things like the Forge of Solus Prime could plausibly end up as subtle symbols for a revolution.

Date: 14/5/20 01:42 (UTC)
autobotscoutriella: Picture of a blue robot wrapped in Christmas lights (Default)
From: [personal profile] autobotscoutriella
It'd be hard to squash long-term for that exact reason, I think! There's always going to be somebody who puts the pieces together and asks "but if Primus intended for members of the Thirteen to ask questions...", and as long as people have any access to the concept of the Thirteen/the old cults, I think someone's always going to ask that. (They could get around it by completely rewriting the entire story, I guess, but considering Cybertronian lifespans, that would take a Very Very Long Time.)

I admittedly haven't done a lot of thinking about functionism, but I've been kind of subconsciously working from the assumption that that exact problem is part of why their social control is so extreme--because it really does go against the nature of their species, and even if you manage to completely take away the Thirteen and literally everything except "Primus created everyone for one use and one function", anyone who's inclined to think about that sort of thing will eventually get to "our Species Hat is literally transformation." I mean, the obvious solution is that nobody who says that out loud ever speaks again, but it makes me think they'd probably be playing whack-a-mole with tiny rebellions pretty much all the time.

Date: 17/5/20 03:18 (UTC)
autobotscoutriella: Picture of a blue robot wrapped in Christmas lights (Default)
From: [personal profile] autobotscoutriella
I would LOVE to read something that focused on the cult of Solus Prime and how it informs character actions--religious worldbuilding isn't my strong suit, but it's so much fun to get into. (I feel that about the self-indulgent fic, though. If it helps, I've been writing telepathic ninja assassins?)

The Primacy makes a lot of sense as an interpretable thing, I think, especially since the caste system seems like it invites its own different approaches and interpretations of the Primes and the Thirteen themselves are pretty distinct as far as abilities/associations go. I feel like it could play into regional rivalries/differences, too--especially if, building off the idea that Unicron was some type of flight-frame and maybe Liege Maximo was as well, there was an element of discrimination based on which Prime was associated with that profession/class/frametype/region.

Date: 13/5/20 01:20 (UTC)
quietmoon: Megatron looking interested. (interesting)
From: [personal profile] quietmoon
I love this idea. There's so much to explore with religion in Transformers, especially in TFP where Unicron and the 13 are so relevant the whole way through. I have a ridiculous amount of headcanons for TFP, and one of them is that Liege Maximo is a flightframe. I've no doubt he's likely near the bottom of the popularity list as far as the lore of ancient primes go, considering what we've heard about him, so maybe that could even feed into bias against flightframes. :o I haven't heard before the concept that there's an inherent idea of associating flight as directly contrasting Cybertron aka Primus but I really like it!

But I'm a big sucker for — as you said — in-universe debate and confusion over which (if any) of the stories are true and which are conjecture. Whenever I write something where the primes or creation myth is relevant, I end up implying that whatever truth once existed has gotten muddled up so that it overlaps with fiction in societal headspace.

Date: 22/5/20 10:52 (UTC)
quietmoon: A screencap of Jiji, the black cat from Kiki's Delivery Service (Default)
From: [personal profile] quietmoon
I loved reading this. :)

I can see different versions of the story — maybe one like Aesops Fables that serves most as
a tale to ward against following the wrong person/people, one that sympathises with them both and sees it as a tale of tragedy and inevitability and mortal folly (like Eden's apple, yk), others that see it very much in black and white with Liege as the surrogate for 'evil'...

The Functionist government using cultural history and religion to control the masses by twisting stories to fit their message is chilling, but I can easily see it as you describe. I'd love to see this explored more omg.

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