I'm gearing up to write some Robot Blasphemy

[yvannairie]

So I got to thinking -- it could be interesting if some of the negative bias towards flight frames we see comes from them having an implicit association with space and the orbit, which is directly opposing the planet (Primus) and is thus associated with Unicron.

Like, nobody ever really thinks about it, but maybe Unicron gets portrayed as having a aerial mode or at least suggesting one (and he's definitely portrayed as having a root mode reminiscent of Predacons, so there's that). We have a soft confirmation that Megatronus -- the closest Lucifer figure they have -- had a flying alt mode, since he was who Megatron was modeled after when he became a gladiator.

There's probably canon (including in-universe canon, because it is a religious matter, after all) over what the alt forms of the Thirteen were, although there's also probably plenty of debate which one of them even had alt forms, and plenty of debate over whether transformation originates from Primus or from Amalgamous Prime.

Hell, fringe opinions doubting the divinity of the Thirteen probably exist, too, if it's not even a settled matter over whether Cybertron is Primus or simply his creation.

Comments

[autobotscoutriella]

This is very interesting and makes me want to write about the many religious debates that Cybertron would logically have had, considering how...uh...blurry canon is on the subject! I could see beliefs about the origin of transformation being very regional--in fact, I think a lot of beliefs could be, considering that Cybertron's "cities" seem to be relatively self-contained. I've thought about the idea that different members of the Thirteen might be considered more important, or at least more relevant, in particular areas, though I never got around to trying to map that out.

[yvannairie]

Oh man I love the idea that different Primes are important in different regions, even if Primus is recognised as the most important divinity, and that each citystate has their own interpretation of the mythos. I wonder how well that would work with functionism and the insistence that everything has a single use and a single form (and they kind of have to at least recognise the Thirteen has being divine by default because where else would they be deriving the divinity of Primacy in general?)

Then again -- I could see the Thirteen being sort of. Deprecated under functionism, reduced to just being "creations of Primus for the purpose of destroying Unicron", which would then nicely lead into talking about the War of the Primes as "what happens when you go outside of your function". Some Primes -- like Solus (engineering and creation), Amalgamous (transformation and shapeshifting) and Nexus (combination) -- are definitely figures that don't fit neatly into the power structures of the society. The narrative of the war of the Primes must have also gotten simplified quite a bit to get it to come out as "and so those who Followed Their Function survived and Megatronus and Liege Maximo were punished for their deviance :)"

[autobotscoutriella]

I love the idea of different cities/regions sort of customizing the mythos to fit with the most relevant/important Prime to them--areas heavy on the beastformers/Maximals/etc. probably have a very different take on Onyx Prime than the upper-class Iacon regions might.

It wouldn't work well with functionism initially, I don't think, but with a reinterpretation/simplification of the Thirteen and their history in order to make each member fit into a single use and form, I could see that slowly creeping in as part of the early development of functionism. Depending on how one looked at it, I could even see an early functionism argument being "well, look at how the Primes are separated by their relevant cities--our deities match our intended function" (even though that would definitely be an oversimplification and probably a bad-faith argument, it could be dressed up to sound good).

That definitely makes me think there would be various revolutionary movements cropping up around different members of the Thirteen, too, especially if people were around who still remembered the older Thirteen mythos (or had read/heard about it somewhere). There could easily be various small rebellions built up around the relevant Prime--the three you mentioned would make excellent symbols of rebellion for a populace living under functionism, even if they weren't considered strictly divine at that point. Things like the Forge of Solus Prime could plausibly end up as subtle symbols for a revolution.

[yvannairie]

Oh man I really love the idea that the high archons of the Primal church have been putting out religious cults that have formed around the Thirteen over the millenia, and trying to instead corral the image of them back to being more like a saint of sorts, who served their function as Primus intended and then died or vanished into the fog of history, never quite figuring out what to do about the fact that if that's the argument they use, then that would mean Primus intended some part of their species to always rise up and ask uncomfortable questions.

Which wouldn't even be a problem, really, if the whole point wasn't social control. I intend to touch on it in a fic at some point, but it's pretty wild how nobody ever comments on how a species capable of such change and invention is so culturally static and inflexible, and how thinking about everything in neat black and white boxes is hilariously unsuitable when all of them literally have two natures. I feel like to even get to the idea of an individual mecha as just a singular frame, you have to take a very complicated trip through the ontology of the spark, and even then, if the ability to change is there, what is the argument for that not being the "function" a frame has, and everything else just being circumstantial? |D

[autobotscoutriella]

It'd be hard to squash long-term for that exact reason, I think! There's always going to be somebody who puts the pieces together and asks "but if Primus intended for members of the Thirteen to ask questions...", and as long as people have any access to the concept of the Thirteen/the old cults, I think someone's always going to ask that. (They could get around it by completely rewriting the entire story, I guess, but considering Cybertronian lifespans, that would take a Very Very Long Time.)

I admittedly haven't done a lot of thinking about functionism, but I've been kind of subconsciously working from the assumption that that exact problem is part of why their social control is so extreme--because it really does go against the nature of their species, and even if you manage to completely take away the Thirteen and literally everything except "Primus created everyone for one use and one function", anyone who's inclined to think about that sort of thing will eventually get to "our Species Hat is literally transformation." I mean, the obvious solution is that nobody who says that out loud ever speaks again, but it makes me think they'd probably be playing whack-a-mole with tiny rebellions pretty much all the time.

[yvannairie]

..... honestly this is just validating my thoughts that I should start putting some of my ideas about the cult of Solus Prime being. A thing that informs the actions of multiple characters. Into words. Yeah. (A lot of it is so embarrassingly self-indulgent even mentioning I have those ideas is making me break out in hives, though.)

Because I love the idea of the Primacy being something that's kind of been more of an interpretable thing, and it's only in the age of very strictly militaristic, Prima-inspired Primes who value order and control that the primary association with "Prime" has moved from being the kind of. Protective deity/saint of your particular profession or social class moreso than being something fixed, so you'd have people gravitate towards whatever "order" most spoke to them, allowing for a kind of non-hierarchical social mobility.

I guess I gotta put that on the meta b/c that seems like a thing that would build very nicely off my Unicron conspiracy theory.

[autobotscoutriella]

I would LOVE to read something that focused on the cult of Solus Prime and how it informs character actions--religious worldbuilding isn't my strong suit, but it's so much fun to get into. (I feel that about the self-indulgent fic, though. If it helps, I've been writing telepathic ninja assassins?)

The Primacy makes a lot of sense as an interpretable thing, I think, especially since the caste system seems like it invites its own different approaches and interpretations of the Primes and the Thirteen themselves are pretty distinct as far as abilities/associations go. I feel like it could play into regional rivalries/differences, too--especially if, building off the idea that Unicron was some type of flight-frame and maybe Liege Maximo was as well, there was an element of discrimination based on which Prime was associated with that profession/class/frametype/region.

[quietmoon]

I love this idea. There's so much to explore with religion in Transformers, especially in TFP where Unicron and the 13 are so relevant the whole way through. I have a ridiculous amount of headcanons for TFP, and one of them is that Liege Maximo is a flightframe. I've no doubt he's likely near the bottom of the popularity list as far as the lore of ancient primes go, considering what we've heard about him, so maybe that could even feed into bias against flightframes. :o I haven't heard before the concept that there's an inherent idea of associating flight as directly contrasting Cybertron aka Primus but I really like it!

But I'm a big sucker for — as you said — in-universe debate and confusion over which (if any) of the stories are true and which are conjecture. Whenever I write something where the primes or creation myth is relevant, I end up implying that whatever truth once existed has gotten muddled up so that it overlaps with fiction in societal headspace.

[yvannairie]

Yeah, Liege Maximo being a flight frame would fit really well. He probably creates a lot of theological problems -- on the other hand you can approach him as kind of fulfilling his functions to Megatronus' delusional ends, a kind of lesson about how your function may be warped by poor motivations, but then you're left with the problem of how good motivations must arise from correct functioning. This would make the Fallen a far more active, rebellious figure, but would be harder to reconcile if Primus had given all the Primes their function as well. On the other hand, you could lean into Liege Maximo being the original bad egg, and make Megatronus more of a tragic misled figure, in a kind of "sometimes bad things happen because it is in some people's inherent nature to do bad" fable.

[quietmoon]

I loved reading this. :)

I can see different versions of the story — maybe one like Aesops Fables that serves most as
a tale to ward against following the wrong person/people, one that sympathises with them both and sees it as a tale of tragedy and inevitability and mortal folly (like Eden's apple, yk), others that see it very much in black and white with Liege as the surrogate for 'evil'...

The Functionist government using cultural history and religion to control the masses by twisting stories to fit their message is chilling, but I can easily see it as you describe. I'd love to see this explored more omg.

[yvannairie]

Thank you! I'm glad you like it, this has definitely been useful for me to get my thoughts into order.

I think ultimately I like the idea that Megatronus' patronage was typical of warrior class mecha -- civil protection, enforcers, soldiers -- and his tragedy is often folded into the narrative to provide a counterpoint to the idea that power and affluence are good for their own sake. Megatronus' downfall was at least partially from a lack of community, from being unfettered and not having a sensible goal in mind for all that power he was accumulating. Megatronus, ultimately, is a failed protector. It pairs nicely with the idea that Prima -- and under his patronage, the judges and courts -- is also tragic in his lack of flexibility and being too quick to assume the worst. The failure of communication between them is the result of valuing method over results, essentially. Prima loses his tragic furnishings and becomes more of a righteous vanquisher of deviance and greed in later retellings to fit better with functionist messages about how it was So Sad that the Fallen was not satisfied to serve his purpose as the sword-arm of Primus.

Liege Maximo is also just up and villainised in later retellings as an agitator and a collaborator and is seen as having gotten his dues when Megatronus turned on him, but the narrative probably wasn't originally that clear-cut? After all, self-interest is not inherently evil, and negotiation, strategising and social engineering are useful and necessary skills, not only because assuming that everyone is always acting in good faith means the ones that don't hold themselves to that standard can make a sucker out of everyone else. Liege Maximo going too far is more of a proper old-fashioned cautionary tale.

It might be interesting to envision Liege Maximo and Micronus Prime as sort of... counter-forces. Micronus is the angel to Liege Maximo's devil on one's shoulder, one of them advocating nobility, group-mindedness and principle and the other one gesturing towards self-preservation, utilitarianism and individualism. "Sometimes, it's good to think for yourself" is not a message a functionist high church would want to propagate, either :D