Analysing negative feelings at their root must have some value

[yvannairie]

So I know hating characters because they come "in the way" of your ship is bad, but I wish that was something we could at least talk about, you know? :/

I have certain characters that I'd probably like if they had zero contact with certain other characters and I've never seen conversations about why this happens, even though I've read a lot of smart people write a lot of smart words about why the opposite (i.e. starting to like a character based on their interactions with other characters) is such a common occurence.

The dynamics of liking things are discussed a lot more, which is pretty fascinating on its own. And I guess it might be asking a bit much because a) nobody really likes talking about things that make them feel bad and b) culture is so overwhelmingly negative at the moment anyway that reinforcing their happiness is preferrable to most people.

It just feels unbalanced because lately the "you can like ANYTHING for ANY REASON" message has been growing in volume, but it still feels like if you dislike something you're supposed to accept that you're Doing The Thing Wrong And Shut Up.

And that's unsatisfying.

(But then again at the moment we probably can't have sensible conversations about why things are Bad without it turning into a fight or posturing of some kind.)

Comments

[yvannairie]

*nod nod* *noises of camaraderie and broad agreement*

I get the feeling that if we wanted to have an open discussion about why some stuff doesn't work, we would have to a) find a group of people who it doesn't work for who are capable of expressing it without "hating" on it and b) somehow have the conversation somewhere where people who like it can't.... I don't want to say "pollute", but.... interfere? With the process of working it out?

[cimorene]

Yeah, I mean, do you guys remember waves of wank meta accusing posts about negative opinions of being 'pissing in people's cheerios'? I mean, not even comments or replies, or 'if you post it in the main tag' or 'if you post it in the main comm', but just like... posting about something you hate in your own journal is still considered offensive by some people.

And I THINK those people are in a minority! But I also think we all know about them which is why people tend to be more hesitant about coming out with their negative reactions lest their motives be mistaken for "just to make people sad".

That said, I do see negative reactions in general in people's posts about things that they've watched and read and things in fandoms, even specific characters. They just usually wind up with extra disclaimers and a cut tag to spare people's feelings.

And of course when we talk about people who 'get in the way of a ship', as you put it in your post, they have historically been the recipients of a lot of vitriol within fandom, both het and slash, and easily within living memory, so it's easy to see why many people tend to be suspicious that someone writing about how they hate that character is just projecting their shipping desires onto them.

[yvannairie]

yOU KNOW WHAT if this actually is just echos of "format trauma" I have from Tumblr, where the "don't tag/crosstag/broadcast your hate" thing was most prominen, I wouldn't be surprised -- I just got done commenting elsewhere that the format of that site, to quote myself, "clings to you like the smell of an old house."

I remember when I started to use Tumblr, I was super delighted to be away from Extremely Critical Nitpicky Content into a space where most meta was positive/gushy in tone and no "taste" was "bad", just different. It makes on a gut level perfect sense to me that that feeling of athropied skills to describe why something doesn't work is because the format didn't really properly allow for it.

Anyway the rest of your comment is also 👌👌, that's just the bit that really... oof. That's just really oof.

[cassini]

[i'm hitting the 'like' button on this conversation ]

[tumblr's functionality was not the only contributor to this Thing, but it was a big one - a global tagging system that ended up moderated by some kind of mob rule, when the mob was completely formless?? i literally don't know how anyone ever did fandom on tumblr but i salute you who did, so you can bring your tales and advice forwards ]

[cimorene]

That would totally make sense and if that's the case all you need to do is probably practice thinking/writing about your own opinions a bit! A lot of people do casual weekly mini-reviews of things they've been watching or reading, for example. You could just set yourself some homework! (I've set myself some homework since Tumblrpocalypse to get back in the habit of just like... posting in words, in general, and I think it's working pretty well.)

[yvannairie]

Yeah, I'm definitely going out of my way to try to comment more -- I actually got back into a pretty good writing groove after some Circumstances devastated my Tumblr follower count and I felt more liberated to literally just write whatever the fuck I wanted. That, luckily, seems to have carried over to this site, along with the fact that oh thank Primus, a site that works in mobile.

It's just... write write write, work work work, trying to deliberately push myself out of that comfort zone where passive interaction and the mere exposure effect did most of the work for me to a space where it's Totally Allowed to be like "yeah, this convo is good -- lemme link to one I've had about this elsewhere on the site".

I do really enjoy collaborative writing, I'm now on a bunch of Discord servers that have meta/hc/worldbuilding channels for us to roll around an idea as a group until it takes shape. DW is just that, except I don't have to worry about "missing out" since it's not even in real time.

(although maybe I should try the homework thing too, considering how well the Daily Tarot Card thing makes me just sit my ass down and write)

[extrapenguin]

a) find a group of people who it doesn't work for who are capable of expressing it without "hating" on it and b) somehow have the conversation somewhere where people who like it can't.... I don't want to say "pollute", but.... interfere?
This is the hard bit! I've found that private ragging sessions with my friend can help me figure out my thoughts/the "what" of what doesn't work, and then later digestion will bring out the whys. In semi-public (multiple people, not on the open net) with other people who didn't like the thing, it was mostly a venting/ragging session, where we all agreed with each other's points and offered slightly different takes on it. In semi-public with people who did like the thing, I very reasonably elaborated what didn't work for me and why, but the responses all felt like they were missing the point – trying to explain away my issue with authorial intent with character motivation, or just saying that they liked it, because of $thing in their personal life. So, yeah. I think the best place to figure out why something doesn't work might be a DW post on one's journal (lowish traffic) with lots of noodling, and hoping the typing process or the comments will elucidate.

(And watch me use "doesn't work for me" vs even "dislike"! It really does go deep.)

[yvannairie]

Man the "doesn't work/doesn't do it for me" vs "dislike" thing is fascinating on its own. Off the top of my head I can mention a bunch of things that really just don't work but only one "yeah it's fine I just hate it lol" comes to mind. That's... that's something?

[yvannairie]

" the responses all felt like they were missing the point" is also a huge-ass mood, although I know for a fact that I'm guilty of the "but you can understand it like this and then it's not a problem myself =v=);